Thursday, March 31, 2011

Dear Person at the Grocery Store: Shasta's Blog

One of our members blogged about her experiences at the grocery store with her twins and shared with our online member community.  On her blog, Outrageous Fortune, Shasta journals about life with her identical twin boys, one of which is diagnosed with cerebral palsy.

Dear Person at the Grocery Store shares her thoughts on what many of us with multiples go through when out and about.  (And if you read the comments below this post, Shasta got her first hate mail and she loves it!  Hilarious!)

Diagnosis Day: Shattered expectations explains her current reality in a nutshell.  I'm so impressed that she shocked the doctor with her medical vocabulary knowledge.  She does her research and knows her stuff!

Thanks for letting us take a glimpse into your life through your amazing writing, Shasta.  Her blog is definitely worth a read.  Check it out! 

Tuesday, March 29, 2011

Tuesday Q

I'm sick.  And I'd like to feel better.  Much better.  And when did this hit?  Over Spring Break of course!  Before the illness took over, I managed a one nighter to Salem with the twins while my older son was with his Grandma in Albany.  We called it "Camp Grandma" since he was gone for three nights. I'm looking forward to the day the Grandmas can take all three at once for "Camp Grandma" in Salem and "Camp Grandma" in Albany.  So looking forward to those days.

Where did you go with your multiples over the "break"?  What was their favorite part of the week?

Tuesday, March 22, 2011

Tuesday Q

Why, oh why couldn't daylight savings start at the beginning of Spring Break, when the kiddos have a week off from school, or their regular schedule, to adjust?  What has been the worst part of daylight savings for you and your family? 

Monday, March 21, 2011

Double Baby Wearing

Most parents of multiples can recount the moment when their images of impending parenthood were challenged. The ultrasound. That first ultrasound when you learned you were not just expecting a baby, you were expecting a litter. After the initial shock, your mind tries to take in all of the adjustments. You shift from thinking about strollers to rigs. The Mini Cooper turns into a minivan. The college fund turns into a university endowment.

And baby wearing? What happens to that sweet image of cradling your darling near and dear to your heart? It turns to this:

Am I the only person who starts to think of nocturnal critters?

Don’t let these images frighten you. As a parent of multiples you should embrace the concept of baby wearing even more. It is no longer a cute accessory item. It is a necessity. Long after parents of singletons put the carriers up on the shelf, you will be walking around a playground chasing two toddlers with a carrier clipped around your waist. 

My children are nearing their second birthday and our days of double baby wearing are nearing an end. Over these two years I have explored a variety of configurations that give me freedom to be hands free when home or out and about.

1 month
In those early days, one carrier could accommodate both babes. I had a Storchenwiege wrap (similar to a Moby in concept but the material is less stretchy so works well with the weight of two babies or as the babes get heavier) that I would put them both in those early months. I personally think the special multiples carriers have limited utility and you are better off going with a carrier that can accommodate two but can also be a great carrier for one as your children gets older. The wrap carriers work well for this. Some parents also use the Kangaroo Korner at this stage.

4 months
When my children were about 3 months old, I remember trying to make pancakes while juggling two babies who both wanted/needed to be held. They were too big for one carrier now, so the experimentation began. I started with a combination of one wrapped to me in the front and then the other under in the ring sling. This allowed me to make those pancakes and was a configuration I did a couple more times, but as my children got bigger I needed to balance them a bit more. So I either put one on each side or front and back.

1 year
I continued to use the ring sling as they got older but they would sit in it rather than be cradled by it. The ring sling was nothing fancy, just a simple hand me down and for some reason my daughter was especially comforted by it. As children get heavier the ring sling can slide into your neck more. You can drape the material over your shoulder to prevent this, but that never seemed to stay for me. My children were on the smaller side, so I didn’t find it uncomfortable when it did start sliding up a bit as you see here.

When the babes were about 6 months, I started throwing an Ergo into the mix. In those early days, I would sometimes forget I even had a child on my back. Some folks prefer Becos and others use Mei Tais at this point. I found the Ergo worked better for me and my proportions. I strongly encourage folks to take their children with them and try different carriers to see what works best for them. Even if you don’t double baby wear at this stage, having the ability to wear one still gives you a good amount of freedom. I would often wear one and carry the other when running errands. If all the double carts are taken when you get to the grocery store you can put one in the cart and wear the other.

17 months
In our second year of baby wearing my most common combination was a Baby K'tan in the front (often without the extra sash tied on) and an Ergo in the back. In an ideal world I probably would have gone with one Ergo on the front and one on the back. But not knowing how much double wearing we had left wasn’t willing to commit to the price of another Ergo. The Baby K’Tan is similar to the wrap carriers but is two interlocking loops and is much simpler to get on. My babes were late walkers (~16 months) so it was well worth it to find a double arrangement that worked at this point.

22 months
One advantage of the Baby K’Tan over the Ergo in the front is I did have the option to have the child in the front face in or out. I recently took the children to Disneyland (with two other adults) and much preferred navigating without the stroller. The kids could sleep on me while we were in line and I didn’t worry about what would happen to the stroller while left unattended at the stroller parking.

23 months
Being proficient at baby wearing can be a crucial skill for parents of multiples but it takes a little experimenting to find the right combination for you (and then be prepared to change it a month later as the babes develop!)   
                                                                                          Good luck!

Sionainn M.
FHM Treasurer
Mommy to boy/girl twins (almost 2!)

Sunday, March 20, 2011

Easy Crock Pot Meals for Busy Moms

Personally, I'm always happy to hear about meals that are quick and easy.  Two to four ingredients easy.  Recipes I can remember without having to write it down while chasing my children around easy.  Food prep and cooking I can do quickly since my hands are usually busy taking out art supplies, cleaning mud off shoes, or applying band-aids. If I can prepare it in the morning and it's ready to eat at dinnertime, it's all good.  Prepping and cooking  anytime after 4:00 does not work for me. That's where crock pot meals come into play.  If you have not tried a crock pot meal yet, I highly suggest buying yourself one of these sanity saving appliances or digging yours out of the cupboard.  Crock pot cooking is AWESOME.

Here's a peek into what's going on in a thread with our members right now regarding what I consider genius.  Thought it'd be fun to share with all parents with or without multiples.  Feel free to add your own to the comments.  (Thanks for starting this conversation, Robyn!)

For those of your that are searching for crock pot meals that are EASY, I thought we could start a thread. I will start...
Frozen Chicken Breasts (I usually do 3)
Pour over a can/jar/bunch of salsa
Let sit on low all day
If your group is NOT picky, you can put in some beans, cheese, and sour cream for the last hour to marinate. We serve everything on the side in our house. This is great for burritos or tacos. I have made this several times (and with 3 chicken breasts, it makes a LOT), and every time am amazed at how easy it is.

Cooking Light has some slow cooker recipes in their latest issue. I bought it but haven't had a chance to read it.
There's a new slow cooker recipe book out by America's Test Kitchen. I've put a hold on it through the library since I forced myself to quit buying cook books until I've tried them.
My favorite slow cooker recipe is a modified pressure cooker recipe from epicurious: There are great notes in the reviews for modifying it for slow cooker.

I love to cook but between a full time job and kids, I don't have much time to cook for elongated time. Slow cooker scares me a little to cook things for a long time when I am not home. I have a regular pressure cooker but I am not fond of the constant steam it lets out during cooking process.
This new cooker works great! It is also rice cooker which produces rice as delicious as my fancy but slow Japanese rice cooker. I am able to steam at the same time.
Plus, you can delay cooking time, as well as keeping warm. I am experimenting with this cooker. The lamb shank recipe on Robin's post looks yummy. I will try it tomorrow!

I have a variation on the first crock pot recipe above. A friend made it for me at my house soon after I had the twins--one of the best meals we were brought ever, since not only did we get a delicious meal, it's become a staple in our family!
Mexican soup
Dump in a crock pot
--frozen or thawed chicken breasts, cut into bite-size pieces (i usually use 3)
--two cans black beans, rinsed
--two cans diced tomatoes
--one small can tomato sauce
--one jar salsa
Cook on low for 4-5 hours. Serve with tortilla chips crumbled over the top and cheese, sour cream, cilantro, etc. on the side.

We also like Italian sausages in the crockpot. Very easy.
-Italian sausages (left whole)
-2 cans tomato paste
1 small can tomato sauce
-basil, oregano (plus any other herbs desired)
cook on low all day. Serve on buns with mozerella cheese and peppercini (or no peppers). Great with salad on the side.

Just have to say I love this thread!!
Below is my favorite recipe for Butternut Squash soup. DELICIOUS!
--1 butternut squash
--2 T olive oil
--2 small medium onions, or 2 T onion flakes
--4 cups broth, chicken or vegetable
--2 small apples, peeled and cubed
--1 1/2 tsp salt
--1/4 tsp black pepper
--1/4 tsp nutmeg
--1/4 tsp cloves
--1/4 tsp coriander
--1/4 tsp cinnamon
If using a fresh butternut squash, cut in half, brush with olive oil and roast it first in the oven at 400 degrees (15mins). Or you can just add already cut up/cubed butternut squash (ie from Costco) straight to the crockpot to omit the oven portion.
Cover and cook on low for 6 to 8 hours, or on high for about 4. Blend in small batches with a stand blender, or carefully blend with an immersible wand.
And sorry to make this so long, but I have to credit the website that I found this recipe on because you all might find it invaluable as well.
This woman made a new year's resolution to use her crockpot every day in 2008 and created a blog for it. Now her blog is super popular and has a TON of recipes (most are healthy and gluten free) and you can find a way to make anything in the crockpot!
She posts a picture showing all the ingredients and in the comments are great ideas from other people who've made it and they offer suggestions or other things to add in. It's been a bookmarked favorite of mine for awhile now and most of the recipes have been easy and tasty!
Can't wait to see the recipes keep coming on this thread!!

Easy Crockpot Chicken (SUPER yummy. Thanks to Jamie for bringing me this recipe when she brought me a meal from FHM).
1 can cream of chicken
1 can chicken broth
4-6 chicken breasts
1pkg. dry Italian Pressing Mix (where you buy dry ranch dip mix etc.)
1 8oz package cream cheese
Cook all but cheese in pot for 4-6 hrs. Add cream cheese for last hour. Shred up chick and serve over rice or noodles.
I use this recipe whenever I need to bring a meal to someone. It is impressive, yet easy!

Thanks Samantha for that link!!! It is saved in my favorites now. Cooked some chicken last night, the boys actually ate it! And I'm cooking a sausage dish tonight. Love my crockpot again! And it works so much better since I never know exactly when my husband will be home from work.
Thanks Robyn for starting this thread!

Love this thread! I'm a 2-3 ingredients kind of cook. A crock pot recipe I enjoy which is just a variation on the chicken & salsa:
Pork tenderloin
Peach & Mango (or one or the other) salsa
Serve over rice or on the side. It's kinda on the sweet side.
I'm writing these down and trying them. Thanks, All!

My absolute favorite right now is Pulled is soooo easy!
You need:
2-3 lb. pork shoulder
(I found a 12-15 pound hunk of pork shoulder at Costco...I buy it and cut it into 5 or 6 portions and freeze it...I will mention that I usually buy my meat from New Seasons, but I found this deal and figure it won't kill us and it's a really great cheap meal at 1.99 per pound!)
1/4 cup brown sugar
1 tsp chili powder
1-2 cloves garlic (to make it quicker I use the frozen garlic cubes from Trader Joe's)
1/2 cup Apple Cider vinegar
1/2 cup water
-Cut off all of the excess fat from your pork shoulder (this is the most time consuming part of the whole recipe)
-Mix sugar, chili powder, and garlic together
-Rub the mixture all over the pork shoulder and place it in the crockpot
-Pour vinegar and water on the sides of the pork in the crock pot
-Put on Low for 6-8 hours or High for 4-6 hours
When it is done put the pork into a bowl and dispose of the liquid. Using two forks pull the pork apart. Mix in your favorite bbq sauce (We LOVE Organicville simple bbq sauce) or make your own. Put it back into the crockpot to warm it up with the sauce.
Serve with coleslaw and fresh make it true Southern style you can actually have the coleslaw on top of the pork on your roll...DELICIOUS!

My BBQ Pulled Pork is a little different, so I will throw that out here as well! I use the tenderloins from Costco, which are fairly lean...
~ Put the pork in the crock pot and cover with root beer (yes, I said root beer)
~ Let sit on low all day
~ Take out and Shred the pork (the most time consuming)
~ Empty the root beer and put the shredded pork back in the crock pot
~ Pour sauce over the pork (we use Sweet Baby Ray's) and let sit for an hour or so
~ Enjoy! 

Beef tips in red wine mushroom sauce. I just love calling stew meat beef tips, it sounds fancy. I came up with this trying to copy a frozen diet dinner my Mom had that was surprisingly delicious.
Stew meat (maybe a pound or more), 1/2 bottle of red wine, one packet of Lipton french onion soup mix, 1 to 2 cups or so of water, 1/2 of a chopped onion, 1 bag frozen pearl onions from Trader Joe's, pepper. Put all of those ingredients in the crock pot for maybe 4 or 5 hours. Then in the last hour add 2 to 3 Tablespoons butter, one package of button mushrooms sliced. Remove about 1/2 of hot liquid and mix with a heaping Tablespoon of flour and return to port to thicken sauce. Serve over whole wheat pasta, cooked Yukon potatoes or rice.  You can add baby carrots, too.

Friday, March 18, 2011

Meet the Board: Tiffany C.

My husband and I had discussed how many children we wanted to have and what we thought would be a good number long before we even were married. It was important for me and someone I viewed as my possible lifelong partner to know what I was wanting out of life. I also mentioned to him on a side note that there was this little chance that possibly in our future we could have twins. This was mostly due to the fact that my dad and aunt were twins. I never really thought it would be a reality. We were married March 25, 2006. We found out we were expecting on January 25, 2008. Mark and I were elated to find out we were going to have a baby!

On February 22, 2008 we had our appointment to find out how things were going since we were almost at week 10 and I had a family history of twins they wanted to do an ultrasound. My OBGYN had a small ultrasound machine in her office, so we went ahead and took a peak. What we saw wasn’t anything even the doctor or nurses could explain.  What we were seeing looked like several little egg sacs with beating hearts and the doctor said I am just not sure how many there are; it is at least two babies in there. My husband was about to fall over at this point, I think his face was white and he was just a little shocked. So I drank more water and we went in to the hospital for a clearer look at things. When we got in there she moved the wand around and soon it appeared clear as day you could see two little fetuses in there. My husband was filled with relief at this point. He had been preparing for many babies by this time and two seemed like wonderful news!

About a month after our appointment they told us we were having a boy and a girl, we went in for a growth analysis appointment and got some unexpected news. They would have to monitor baby B much closer, as he had a perforation hole in his abdomen somewhere and there was fluid buildup in his stomach cavity. This is a condition that corrects itself most often before babies are born, many people don’t even see this happen in utero.  Most women with only one fetus, unless they have complications, only get the minimal ultrasounds and these types of things can go undetected. It really isn’t known how many babies have this condition. We did have our freak out sessions and worries but after talking with my Uncle who is a doctor and reading more on it, I was confident my little guy was going to be just fine.

I had a wonderful twin pregnancy that included being able to camp, work full time, be a bridesmaid in two weddings and go to the county fair and walk around. I was able to go throughout the entire pregnancy with no more bed rest then I wanted to have.  Towards the end we ran into a few bumps in the road for mom, such as Pupps Rash, High Blood Pressure, and Bell’s palsy.  We finally had a C section on September 6, 2008. I was 36 weeks and 6 days. They were loud, big and healthy!  All the things a mom could wish for. Cami was born first at 7 lbs 3 ounces and 19 inches long. Ty was born second at 8 lbs 10 ounces and 20 inches long. Mark got to carry them both out to the nurses waiting to clean them up further and he was a proud daddy.

I had an infection and was re-hospitalized for three days about a week after the babies were born and that was very hard for me to leave them at home during that time. However, it was necessary since I wasn’t even able to care for myself at that point. After my infection was treated and we were back on track with life at home, things were a bit hectic but with the help of family and friends we made it through the sleepless nights and stages that seemed like they lasted an eternity. The kids are now two and a half and both growing like weeds. I had no idea how wonderful it would be to have two kids the same age at the same time. It seemed really scary at first thinking of the idea on that day back in February of 2008. “Two of Everything?” I remember asking myself.  Yes, a wonderful two of everything and I wouldn’t change it for the world!

Tiffany C.
2011 FHM Resale Co-Coordinator
Mommy to Cami & Ty, 2 1/2 years old

Tuesday, March 15, 2011

Indoor Play

We practically live at Out of this World Pizza & Play in Hillsboro these days.  Spending long winters in a rainy, cold climate means getting out and about is a must in order to maintain my sanity, and a necessity for the boys in order to burn their seemingly endless supplies of energy. We got the membership just before Christmas break to OOTW and have visited the large indoor play park too many times to remember in the past three months.  Now that the twins are 4 1/2 years old, letting them run around freely is a breeze (for the most part), and my seven year old can't seem to get enough of the bouncy mazes.

When the twins were two and three, we were all about the Tualatin Hills Parks and Rec. play gyms, and we seemed to frequent the McDonald's in our area with the play structure where I could easily watch them run around.  We've loved the Children's Museum as well through the years (see picture).  I've only taken my oldest son to OMSI by myself.  I know the twins love it there (we all went on a weekend-extended adult family members included and very helpful), but I'm thinking that will be a great place to visit when the twins older.
Visit the CM and go home with children that look like this!
Where do you take your twins/triplets to play indoors?  (Please include ages you think the location is perfect for.)

Saturday, March 12, 2011

March for Babies

Samantha's girls in the NICU.
FHM members have a natural connection to March of Dimes. Many of us have received direct support from the organization. The Oregon Chapter currently receives $1.3 million in national research dollars to prevent premature birth and brain damage in newborns, improve diagnosis and treatment of fetal and infant growth failure, and more. The chapter has experienced legislative advocates, provides NICU family support, prenatal smoking cessation programs, and fetal alcohol syndrome public education programs, among many other services.

There are several ways you can support March of Dimes and help moms have healthy, full-term pregnancies:

Walk With Us  
Join the FHM team in the 3K March for Babies Walk on Saturday, April 30, 2011, and help raise awareness around March of Dimes. While no fee is required to participate, this is a fundraising opportunity for team members. Bring your family members, coworkers, neighbors, and friends to walk with us, or ask them to sponsor you for $5, $25, $250 or more. This is a stroller-friendly route. 

9:15 am Start Time

3K Family Walk (1.86 miles)

Rose Quarter, downtown Portland

Buy Tulips 
This year FHM is participating in “Blooms for Babies.” For every $5 bunch of 10 multi-colored tulips you buy, $2.50 is donated to March of Dimes. Place your order by April 14 and pick your flowers up at the Thursday, April 21 FHM monthly meeting. And remember, Easter is the following Sunday, April 24 and Administrative Professionals Week is April 24-30.
(MUST be placed before April 14th!)
Email: Samantha at for details on placing your order.
A sign-up sheet will be available at the March 17 monthly meeting at St Vincent’s Hospital (please bring payment with you to the meeting!)

Pick Up:
Tulips will be available for pick up at the April 21st monthly meeting at St. Vincent's Hospital from 6 - 9:30 pm.  Contact Samantha for alternate arrangements if you're unable to make the April meeting.

Make a Personal Donation 
Say you are busy on April 30th and can’t walk with us, or you have flower allergies, or you just want a tax deduction -- what about a simple donation?

Ask Your Office to Donate  
March of Dimes is a nonprofit organization and we would love to have team sponsors. If your office would like to make a monetary donation or an in-kind donation of t-shirts or screen printing, email

Be Our FHM Team Ambassadors  
We are looking for team ambassadors. Please submit two (fully released) photos of your children – one of them in the NICU and one taken recently, that we can post to our web page. The pictures may be enlarged and posted along “Ambassador Avenue” on walk day and posted at sponsoring company work sites. Submissions must be received by Sunday, March 13. Email Chrissa your interest and she will send you a form to complete and picture formatting requirements. We would love to hear your personal story!
Samantha's girls now.

If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Chrissa or Samantha or comment below.  Thanks!

Chrissa K.
FHM Mommy to 2.5 year old twin boys

Samantha K.
2011 Meetings Coordinator
FHM Mommy to 21 month old identical twin girls

Tuesday, March 8, 2011

When to Childproof?

A fellow FHM member with an older son and twin boys just posted about her twins crawling around the house.  My first thought was, time to baby proof the house!

With our older son, we didn't baby proof a thing, aside from bolting shelves to the walls. (Okay, so we took the basic precautions one should take when a child enters your household.)  But with our twin boys we bolted EVERYTHING to the walls!  AND latched most drawers, cabinets, and doors.  AND had a baby proofing professional come to our house to tell us exactly what he recommended should be done in order to make our home safe for our boys.  It came as a bit of a shock to us that we would have to childproof so much with our twins.  But once you become outnumbered, in our case 3 to 2, or 3 to 1 while my husband was at work, it was a necessity.  I'm absolutely sure we avoided many ER trips due to our diligence and child locks.

There are baby proofing companies out there, like the one that came to our house, that will do it all for you, but we opted to do it ourselves for much less.  However, I know I would have appreciated having everything done completely and not adding to our "proofing" as needed, which was our case.  So, my recommendation is:  Call a baby proofing expert and have them do it all for you.  That's just my two cents after living through it and wishing it had all been done early on from the get-go.

(By the way, my husband just took a bunch of drawer latches off this past weekend-Woo hoo!  After four years of those things on, we're finally rid of most of them.  We still have a child safety lock on our front door, and bedroom door since the twins get in and out of everything.  At four and a half years old, they still very much keep us alert and on our toes.)

What are your recommendations for baby/child/twin/multiple proofing, and at what age were your children when you did, if at all?

Sunday, March 6, 2011

Baths for Two

Here's a conversation going on with our members on BigTent (our member website) about bathing two (or more)Add to the conversation in the comments if you have ideas on bathing two babies/toddlers at once:

baths for two
When were you able to bathe both/all of the kids at the same time?
My boys are 13 months and I still have to bathe them separately in a small tub because they are bath daredevils! I tried twice to bathe them together (once I even included my 4 yr old to help keep the boys above water!) and it was like an adrenaline rush trying to keep them from diving under!!
It is a chore getting all three clean, and I'll be honest, we don't do it that often. :)

We put the girls in a laundry basket in the bath tub when they were around 10 months old. It helped confine them while still giving them deeper water to splash in. I'm not sure when we stopped using the basket, so your boys might be too big for the idea.

have you tried the bath seats?
They worked great for us.

I love the laundry basket idea! I am right there with you! I am too nervous to bath my two eight month olds together without my husband there to help me.

I got a non-slip tub mat from One Step Ahead and the boys are doing great bathing together...sure one gets kicked now and then, but we do a quick clean and they play as long as they are being good. Now and then my older son jumps in with them, but that doesn't last long because it's a lot to handle!

We started to do bath together around 18 months or so. We would fill the tub with just a bit of water and a very large non slip mat. They loved it. I was always way to worried to bathe them together so my husband had that job!

We use the bath rings - they work really well and sometimes you can pick them up second hand from a consignment store. If you buy them new, shop around b/c i noticed that prices vary a lot for some strange reason.

We've bathed them together ever since they could sit safely. I bought a bath mat that is only marginal as far as staying suctioned to the tub, but once both boys are sitting on it, it's OK. I try to avoid bathing them by myself but had to recently, and it was OK. Our biggest issue is that they like to stand up. I don't know how many times I say, "sit on your bottom" during a bath...but I'd guess about 25!

We did the bath together as soon as the twins could sit up in a bath seat and then they would go in with my then 2 1/2 year old and we would get it all done at once. Those things were lifesavers for getting everyone bathed quickly and efficiently!!
P.s. I got mine from the resale at great prices and noticed multiple there at the last resale.

I also use the bath seats. I can't say that bath time is my favorite time, but it's all that works. I still usually wait until my husband or nanny are available to help. I used to squeeze my 3 year old in too, but now I have her bathe separate so she can play longer and spread out. :)

I do not love bath time at all, so the idea of bathing my kids separately was never appealing because it doubles the time. When they were little I just didn't fill the tub much, you only need a little bit of water. My aunt used to just put a towel in the bottom of the tub instead of a mat. I have never tried that but it sounds like a good and cheap option to me, just like the laundary basket. I begged my brother not to buy me the bath rings and he did anyway...buying them new was a complete waste of money in my humble opinion. I used them only a few times.

They have an inflatable tub at Babies R Us for around $12. It's pretty good - we used it for awhile with the twins. Your guys may be too big for it and I can't remember when we stopped using it, but it may be worth checking's cheap at least.


Tuesday, March 1, 2011

Tuesday Q for You

"Oh, wait a minute. Huh. Hmmm. Yep. Looks like there are two (insert larger number if needed) in there."

How did you react when you found out you were having multiples?